§1. Schedule and recap: physical limits to materials properties [00:00]
You need to ask questions or I can't digress — I've heard these lectures before. The schedule will be: I'm lecturing today, Dr. Belmar will be tomorrow. I'll be in Dallas, and then I'm going to do three days next week. He'll be here on Thursday — that's the day he could do it. We'll try to keep this posted for you. By the end of next week I'll be seventy-five percent done, and he'll be at least fifty percent done. It moves along fairly quickly when you meet every day. But you'll appreciate it in May when you don't have a course.
Last time we talked about the fact that there are physical limits to materials properties, basically based on the bond strength of the atoms. I talked about mechanical strength, but it's also melting temperature. The highest bond strengths we have are about three electron volts per atom — that's around 250,000 joules per mole. You can work out electron volts per atom to joules per mole by multiplying by Avogadro's number. There are limits to the properties of materials, and the Ashby plots show you that. He usually goes five or six orders of magnitude one way by five or six orders of magnitude the other way, and all materials sort of fall in those ranges.
If you want to be a materials scientist, we can explain why. We can explain why many of the ceramics — the ionic and covalent bonded materials — are transparent. They don't have free electrons. No metals are transparent, except for the one transparent metal we know of. There's no Star Trek fans? Transparent aluminum — that's what they held the whales in, the Voyage Home. You don't remember Scotty deciding to use transparent aluminum? Anyway, go watch The Voyage Home. They had to save the whales. Metals have free electrons and that's why they don't transmit light. They actually absorb light with all those free electrons.
Mark Twain once said "rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated," but in fact he was speaking on behalf of metals when he said that. Most people don't know that. Metals are here to stay. I showed you a Smith plot where he predicted the demise of metals because composites and ceramics and plastics were going to take over the world. Well, that hasn't happened, and we're going to talk in this course about why it's not going to happen, based on the limits of the properties of the materials. Stone, cement, and steel are the only members of the billion-ton-per-year club. We'll get to that today.
§2. Ashby's cost plot and the abundance of elements [03:43]
If we look at something like strength — structural materials versus relative cost — remember, aside from externalities, which is becoming the number one reason for selection of materials in many cases, we've always had availability and cost as two of the issues. This is Ashby's plot on cost. Five orders of magnitude, so you have to plot it on a log-log scale. Low cost is down this side: brick, stone, concrete, and here's mild steel. There is a relationship between the material we use and the cost. Your steel, brick, stone, and concrete are the billion-ton-per-year club, and nothing else comes very close. All the plastics, we'll see, are about 300 million tons per year. They're more expensive, so we use less of them.
The fine ceramics have tremendous strength. This is the fracture strength. Ceramics have lousy fracture energy — essentially zero. Fracture energy is the same as toughness, and I'll show you the toughness later. Some of these ceramics can be fairly inexpensive, but they have lousy toughness, so we have to be careful how we use them. Although stone and concrete are ceramics, so there are exceptions to every rule.
There'll be a handout — this comes out of Ashby's book, his chapter 2 on the price and availability of materials. He's got a plot of the abundance of the elements in weight percent in the Earth's crust — actually atmosphere, oceans, and crust. Oxygen is the most abundant, silicon is the second most abundant, then aluminum, iron, calcium, and magnesium. These actually are in the billion-tons-per-year category.
If you look at the oceans, you have hydrogen and oxygen, and this is weight percent. Virtually everything is in the ocean. There's a certain solubility in water for everything. You can mine uranium from the ocean, you can take gold out of the ocean — a little pricey to extract it, because it's fairly dilute. But the oceans are fairly large, and there's a tremendous amount of most things in the ocean if you want to pay the price.
We generally know what's in the atmosphere. They never tell you what the five percent component in the atmosphere is. Anybody know what the five percent component gas in the atmosphere is? It's water. We have rain, clouds, snow. If you look at humidity tables and temperature versus humidity, near the Earth's surface there's about five percent humidity, or five percent water in the air, at about 82 degrees Fahrenheit. One hundred percent humidity is five percent water. We don't have a hundred percent humidity, but in any case, there's a lot of water up there.
I once wondered — these storms come across the country, dumping all this rain. How much water is up there? If you start calculating the thickness of the atmosphere that has clouds — if you were a Howard Hughes fan, you would know this. Howard Hughes developed pressurized airplanes so they could fly above the clouds, so you wouldn't have to worry about the weather. You have to get to high enough altitudes that you have to have a pressurized aircraft. He was essentially one of the first people to try to build a pressurized aircraft. Before that, the little biplanes go up a few thousand feet, 5,000 feet, and when they had bad weather you couldn't fly. By going up to 10 or 15,000 feet, you can get above the clouds. Some clouds go to 40,000 feet. If you take 10,000 feet of space, and the humidity may only be one percent moisture in the air, one percent times 10,000 feet — that's a lot of rain. You can dump feet of water. Those clouds still got plenty of moisture when they come from the Pacific all the way to the Atlantic.
§3. Where the elements come from, and the cost of getting them out of the ground [09:35]
Here's the relative abundance. If you look at it in terms of marching across the periodic table by atomic number — we have a lot of hydrogen in relative abundance, but it decreases as we get to a larger and larger atomic number.
Does anyone know where the elements were formed? At the time of the Big Bang, the elements didn't exist. Where are the heavy elements formed? Not in the Sun. Not in the core of the Earth. When you have a supernova explosion, it's such an energetic event that that's where nature has its atomic reactor — where it has enough energy and things are slamming together so hard that you actually take light elements and make them into heavy elements. We can do that at billions of dollars per gram in some reactor here on Earth, but in the heavens, it's done in the supernova.
If you look here, iron has this interesting peak above the other things around it. Iron and nickel are very high abundance. Meteorites are typically high in iron and nickel. Does anyone know why? Any nuclear engineers in here? If you look at the stability of the atomic nucleus, atomic number 56 is the sweet spot. Very stable nucleus. You don't have a lot of problem with radioactivity in iron compounds. The nucleus is very stable, and as a result, when the supernova occurs, you produce a lot of iron and nickel. This is basically the productivity curve for supernovae in producing heavy elements. We don't produce them on Earth, we don't produce them in big stars — we only produce them in big stars when they blow up.
I talked about the fact that there was a lot of oxygen in the crust. Most of the elements in the periodic table are present as either oxide or sulfides because that's more thermodynamically stable. One of the problems with metals — and I think metals are wonderful because I'm a metallurgist — is they have a very high price to pay to get them into the metallic state. They tend to exist in an oxide or sulfide state. Aluminum oxide is known as bauxite — the ore is called bauxite. It's mostly Al₂O₃ plus OH. It's got some water and stuff in it, but it's very stable. The free energy of formation of aluminum oxide is very high, and it takes about 300 gigajoules per ton to produce aluminum.
Plastics on the other hand are about 100 gigajoules per ton, and most of that is the energy content of the plastics. Essentially you could have turned that plastic into a fuel to burn in your airplane or your car. We can recycle plastics fairly readily by just burning them up, because they are a fuel.
Copper is very high and it's going even higher. Does anyone know why? Something called entropy. Copper ores are not very concentrated. Anyone know the largest copper mine in the world, or actually the deepest one in the world? You fly over it sometimes as you go out of Salt Lake City Airport. It's about two and a half miles deep. It's Bingham Canyon. Kennecott Copper owns it. It's been mined for a hundred years — they just keep digging it deeper and deeper. The ore there is less than one percent copper — I think it's like a half percent. There were ores in the Belgian Congo, in the 1950s, that were six percent copper. We've depleted all those rich copper ore reserves, so copper takes lots of energy. We essentially mine for copper. We get bauxite that's very rich, we can get iron that's essentially pure iron oxide. Copper is dispersed at very low concentrations, and therefore you've got to overcome a lot of entropy to get it.
Zinc is usually a byproduct of other things. There's iron ore all over the world, because iron is one of the most abundant elements. Glass, cement. There's a list here you'll have, of the energy content. As a result, people like to think, oh, aluminum will overtake steel. No, not in price.
Student: [inaudible question about other properties]
Well, it depends on what property you're talking about. Corrosion resistance — things that take a lot of energy will give up a lot of energy to go back to their oxide state, and so sometimes they have corrosion problems. It turns out not to be true in aluminum, because it forms a nice protective oxide skin. Tends not to be true in titanium. The Achilles heel of iron, of steel, is corrosion. And steel's got 50 on this scale, whatever the scale is. So there are other factors.
The only factor I can draw a correlation to is price, because energy is the price. But there are other correlations. The Achilles heel of metals compared to ceramics and polymers and plastics is they corrode. Plastics — you throw your plastic baggies away and they'll be floating around in the ocean for the next millennia or longer, because bugs don't even eat them very well. You throw metal in the ocean, unless it's a very corrosion-resistant metal, it's going to corrode in that environment. You throw cement in the ocean, it'll be there probably a million years from now — well, actually not a million years. The cement originally came from the ocean. It was formed as limestone in the ocean as a deposit. It precipitated out of the ocean. That's another story. I don't have a simple answer to your question, other than there's a price correlation because energy and price are basically fungible.
§4. The National Academies, and how a "Materials Research Needs" report gets written [17:45]
There's a handout that is the summary of this course. I was on a committee once in the early 2000s — it's a 2002 or 2003 copyright. This is a National Research Council report of the National Academies, Materials Research Needs for the Defense Department in the 21st Century. There were about 40 of us on this committee, and people were talking about all these fancy new materials and how they were going to do all these wonderful things.
You might not know how the National Research Council works. Abraham Lincoln chartered the National Academy of Sciences in 1863. About eight or ten people had this thing, many of them politicians but somewhat scientists at the time. The National Academies are not part of the government, but they have a charter from the federal government as a quasi-governmental agency, whatever that means. Their job is to advise the government on matters of science and technology, and now medicine. The National Academies went plodding along until about the 1950s or 1960s, and then in the mid-60s they formed the National Academy of Engineering, and a few years later the Institute of Medicine. To be in the National Academy of Sciences, you have to be nominated by people who are already in the club.
As Professor Suresh used to say, it's more important to not be in the Academy than to be in the Academy. Once you're elected, you really don't have to do anything, although you'll be asked to serve on committees. Even if you're not in the Academy, you'll be asked to serve on some of these committees, and some people serve on them because they hope it will help them get elected. The National Academy is literally an old boys' club. There's less than five percent women. They're trying to change that — they actually have quotas, so if you happen to be a fairly highly qualified woman, there's a very good chance of being elected. They also have quotas against academics, because the National Academies are forty to forty-five percent academics, and they don't want to be more than thirty percent. So to be a white male at a university, the chances of getting elected are near nought. It's an old boys' club, and it's still like a lot of old boys.
Talking about old boys, one year the average age of election was 73. They just announced who got elected — usually in February for the National Academy of Engineering — and they elected 80 people. With about 22 foreign associates, there are only about 2,000 members of the National Academy of Engineering in the country, and about two million engineers, so you're in the top one out of a thousand, whatever that means.
I was elected when I was department head at age 47 — not the youngest, but one of the younger people to get elected. When I stepped down as department head, Professor Suresh — who's now president of Carnegie Mellon, and who became dean of engineering here, and was a candidate for president of MIT — took me to lunch about once every three months for the first year and a half or two years after I stepped down. At the end of the lunch, the National Academy always came up, because he was not a member yet. He was afraid that I might blackball him or something. I'm not that type of person, but it was interesting. When the nominations come out for the first comment, in the summer — this is all supposed to be very secret — he kept the schedule. He knew all the time what was going on. He took me to lunch in July or August of 2002 or 2003, because he knew he'd been nominated. He'd been nominated by my predecessor, the department head, and you have to be nominated by four or five people, and you can't have everybody from the same institution. There's a lot of politics. He took me to lunch, and the National Academy came up just like every time. Once he knew he'd cleared the comment stage, I never got another lunch. He was department head for another five years, but I never got another lunch. I got free lunches every quarter for about a year and a half. Waste of time.
Anyway, the National Academies also have the National Research Council, which has been around since around 1910, and they do studies for the government. Congress might commission a study, or the Defense Department — some Undersecretary of Defense wants to know what we're going to spend our money on in the future, rather than listening to their own scientists. The US Army about five years before this had spent over a million dollars trying to study what material the Army was going to purchase the most of over the next 20 or 30 years. They came up with a study I could have told them, and I wouldn't have taken ten million dollars to study it. It is steel. Why? You don't throw stones at the enemy. You shoot missiles, or you bring a big tank in. There's a reason why we use steel, and we'll talk about all that.
I was on this committee and they were talking about all kinds of fancy new materials and glamorous technology materials. They asked us all to write up our stuff, and they have editors that put it together in a big report. These reports go to Capitol Hill, and the congressional staffers read them and they influence the funding. So it's worth spending some time on these things. I wrote up my stuff, basically what I've been teaching my class, in three or four pages. It said the old traditional materials are important. This is not what they wanted to hear, and it didn't fit into anyone else's talk. So this became an appendix. It doesn't have my name on it, but I'm the only person who contributed to it.
§5. Westbrook's plot: structural materials by price and volume [25:48]
This is a summary of what I've been teaching, and they called it "Integration of Material Systems and Structures Development." Here's a plot from Jack Westbrook — Westbrook is a graduate of this department. He put this together in 1962 when he was at General Electric. So these are 1962 dollars. It was an internal memo at General Electric. It shows structural materials, dollars per pound, versus pounds per year that were used.
Here's stone — the most highly used material in the world, and it has been for millennia. Here's cement, here's carbon steel, and he's got alloy steel down here used at about one-tenth the volume. These are large numbers — 10 to the 11th pounds per year. That's a lot of material. These are also market size — this was a billion-dollar market in 1962, a hundred-billion-dollar market today. Out at the end, diamond is a structural material. You may not build buildings out of it, but it's a structural material — you're using it for mechanical properties or its optical properties. People use it for optical fronts, and as a structural material it has important uses. Remember, this is a General Electric report, and at the time General Electric had a near monopoly on man-made diamonds, because of Tracy Hall among other people who'd invented the process to make man-made diamonds. Cemented carbides are structural materials, just like diamond. About a hundred dollars a pound. Diamond back then was ten thousand dollars a pound. It's about four hundred million dollars a pound now or something like that. Ashby's got some updated prices.
There's also something in here, and I've already told you this — the value of a pound saved over the life of the vehicle. Twenty cents a pound for ships and railroads. Anybody remember what it is for automobiles? Two dollars a pound. Aircraft, 200. Spacecraft, 20,000. I've already used those numbers a number of times, and you can debate — some of these numbers have changed by a factor of two, and we will talk about some of these things.
Two hundred dollars a pound — I remember the first LGO thesis. The first round of students, one of them went to Boeing, and they actually got the proprietary Boeing number for the value of a pound saved on an aircraft. It's proprietary, but they somehow got permission — or they didn't get permission — and it showed up in their thesis. $188 a pound was Boeing's number. Pretty close to 200. I used to use two dollars a pound for automobiles 20 or 25 years ago, and that was when fuel cost — if you read this article, it was early 2000s, I talked about fuel at $1.50 a gallon. We haven't seen that for a while — we might see it again.
I gave a talk once and I reference Peter Bridenbaugh in here. Private communication, October 11, 2001. I went to a conference, and there was Peter — graduate of this department, senior executive vice president of Alcoa. He was in charge of all the stuff to make aluminum. We were both in the same session. I got up and gave a talk about this type of stuff, and I knew he was in the audience, so I said: all-aluminum vehicles, automobiles, will not really be economical until gas costs about four dollars a gallon. Because I didn't want to offend him — I was syruping it up. I'd used two dollars for four years in the 1990s, but this was early 2000s. Peter came up to me at the break and said: no, Tom, it's two dollars a pound. He was using the same number I was, because that's what the real number was back then.
It does depend on what the price of fuel is, and it could go up to four. But it's not 200 and it's not twenty cents a pound. When you have fuel that's varying by a factor of two, then this number has to vary by a factor of two, because it's based on the price of fuel. For automobiles, it's based on the price of fuel and drag in the water or on the railroad tracks — the friction on the railroad tracks, or the drag in the water for ships. For aircraft, it's based on the price of fuel per hundred thousand hours for a commercial aircraft. For spacecraft, it's the fuel to get a pound in orbit.
Look at the numbers back when we were shooting rockets off in the Apollo program. It was costing five to ten thousand dollars a pound in the 1960s to get a pound of payload in orbit. If you go back and read the 1970s documents, the purpose of the Space Shuttle was to drop the price from ten thousand dollars a pound to a thousand dollars a pound. That's what they told Congress when they asked for the program. If you look at the Space Shuttle in its history of 30 years of use, its actual cost was about thirty or forty thousand dollars a pound — because of the Challenger, the disasters, the efficient management we have at NASA, and all these other things. It was supposed to drop the price by a factor of 10. It actually came in at thirty thousand dollars a pound, or 40,000. I'm sure it depends on how you do your accounting.
Student: [inaudible question about electric vehicles]
The answer is no, but now I'll speculate. Electric vehicles use electrons — and those electrons actually have to come from somewhere. If I look at the cost of a fossil-fuel watt versus an electric watt, electric watts cost more — by about 50 to 100 percent more. That's just the price of wall-plug energy. Electric vehicles are much more efficient in their use of energy, but they're using a more expensive form of energy. And it all goes back to: what was your source of energy? If you've got solar energy, and you can get solar energy down really cheap — but right now solar energy is still costing twenty cents a kilowatt-hour for a regular consumer. There are still problems here, and people don't always look at the whole system cost. In some ways you can run the math and say electric vehicles are very efficient and cost effective, but if you look at the total cycle price right now, they're more expensive.
I'm rebuilding my house right now. They just started digging out the basement. This is an 80-year-old home. If you go up to the first floor, the second floor, you can see right through the house. They took all the walls off — all you see is studs. As they're rebuilding it, I'm going to have three electrical outlets at my driveway. I don't have an electric vehicle now, and I couldn't buy one because I'd have to pay one or two thousand dollars to put an outlet in my driveway or my garage. Since I'm having the whole house rewired, I'm putting in three of them. I've traditionally owned three cars — one for my wife, one for myself, and one to go in the shop. When my kids were around, we had three cars — we didn't want to drive them to high school. Now we're empty nesters, I have one so that we can go to the shop.
§6. Materials as a fraction of manufactured cost [35:23]
You can read that article about the price and availability of materials. How important are materials in terms of the manufactured product? Not very. What is the value of materials in a manufactured product? The most materials-intensive products I know of are pipelines or big steel transmission towers to carry 250 kilovolts of energy. Those have about thirty percent of the cost of the project in material cost. An automobile or an aircraft, materials cost about ten percent. Semiconductors and spacecraft, your materials costs are nothing.
Here's the table from that paper. Raw materials are ten to twenty percent of the value of a manufactured product. Design and engineering is ten to twenty percent — unless you're designing a hula hoop, which doesn't have a lot of design and engineering. Fabrication — forging, machining, all that stuff you mechanical engineers do — that's twenty to forty percent of the manufacturing cost. Non-destructive testing and quality control can be ten to twenty percent. G&A — the accountants and the HR people — is ten percent. And profit, if you add all this up with the ranges above, is either plus ten percent or minus ten percent. You can either win or lose in this game. Those are the approximate numbers.
I'm not really popular with the other faculty in the materials department when I start putting up numbers like this, because it says materials are only a small fraction of the manufactured cost. I'm a manufacturing engineer, folks. I'm not a materials scientist. I'm somewhat of a materials engineer. You'll find some principles in there that sort of go against the grain. Out of the 40 people on this National Research Council committee — well, maybe that's why they don't ask me to be on the committees anymore. I tell them things they don't want to hear. I have a captive class of students, and so you guys have to hear it.
To give you an example — and I reference this in here — the US Navy was worried about the weight of aircraft carriers. Aircraft carriers gain 250 tons a year. If your spouse is giving you a hard time about gaining weight, tell them you don't gain as much as an aircraft carrier each year. The Nimitz class started like 60,000 or 65,000 tons, and it was up toward 90,000 tons 60 years later. Most of the weight is up at the top. The aircraft carrier gains 250 tons a year, and they needed to make it lighter weight because it was going to cost them 50 million dollars to design the new hull.
Around 2000 they gave a million-dollar contract to Newport News Shipbuilding to do a feasibility study: what if they used a 65 ksi strength steel rather than a 36 ksi or 50 ksi steel, which was traditional shipbuilding? What if they went to a higher-strength steel — how much weight would they save, and what would be the total savings? At that time HSLA-65 steel cost about a dollar a pound, two thousand dollars a ton for the plate. They determined that manufactured, it would cost them ten dollars a pound to fabricate the steel. The material cost was ten percent. I could have done that for less than a million dollars. I would have given them that report for half a million. It's just a rule of thumb, and these rules of thumb are not bad.
§7. Structural materials usage and the billion-ton-per-year club [40:27]
If we look at structural materials usage — this is something I put together for this course a couple years ago. Steel right now is about one and a half billion tons a year, and the next closest metal — I said steel is 95 tons out of every hundred tons of metal made in the world. The next closest is aluminum at 1.75 percent. 45 million tons of aluminum is what the Aluminum Association says is the worldwide production. The next largest is copper, at 1.2 percent of the total. I Googled scandium once — worldwide production of scandium is 2,000 tons a year. What do you use scandium for? Baseball bats. It's an alloying element. The Soviets developed it to get very high strength aluminum alloys, and the highest strength aluminum alloys go into baseball bats. That's another story.
You can get off Google the total amount of cement or plastics. Plastics are 300 million tons — twenty percent of the volume of steel, not twenty percent of the weight, because the density of plastics is a lot less. Cement is 2.2 billion tons. Stone — this is my estimate, because stone is used in cement, Portland cement; it's used in railroads — they put it down as the foundation before they put the ties down. A lot of weight goes into railroads. Go look at the new nanotechnology building over here — they're putting stone in the bottom of that. Crushed stone. There's as much weight in stone there as there probably is in concrete. Stone's used for lots of things. It's not always the structural material, but it is a structural material. I've estimated there's probably six billion tons a year of stone. It's the cheapest material, which is why we use a lot of it. There is this correlation between price and the amount of material that we use.
There are other relative costs and density. If I use iron as my metric for these metals, and normalize the density and the cost of iron — aluminum, which has six times the energy content, has five times the cost. Approximately. You could argue maybe it has six times, but approximately, there's the ratio of the energy cost in the material. And it is much lighter.
[Tom passes around sample bars of various metals — aluminum, magnesium, zinc, titanium, nickel.] You can feel the difference in density. Magnesium is really light.
I told you it's two hundred dollars a pound for an aircraft. That's for the whole aircraft. Or it's two dollars a pound for an automobile. If I put the aluminum on the sprung weight on the wheels, or on the brake pads, it's worth about ten dollars a pound. I have a slide I'm going to put up sometime — the faster something goes, the more valuable saving weight is. All this density stuff turns out to be very important, and aluminum is a very important material. It's more expensive than steel, but it has a tremendous advantage over steel in several ways.
If we go back to the billion-ton-per-year club. Due to cost — these guys are the lowest cost materials, that's why they're the billion-ton-per-year club. Availability — platinum is a wonderful high-temperature material, but the cost is not so great and the availability is not so great, and those two are related. Strength — we have the Ashby plots, and strength can be all over the place. Portland cement's not that strong, but it's cheap enough that you can use it. Toughness — the metals win here. This is why metals are important: toughness. Portland cement is not very fracture resistant. Steel is recyclable too — steel is like eighty percent recycled now. Aluminum's like fifty percent recycled, and they're trying to get aluminum up to seventy or eighty percent. What's concrete recycling? Almost nothing. And it's 2.2 billion tons. You want to solve a world problem that's coming up? What are we going to do with 2.2 billion tons when it comes back after useful life? We're going to have some pretty big landfills. Actually we'll fill in the ocean — we'll have a lot more dry land, since all the water is going to rise.
High-temperature capacity. Corrosion resistance — I put this in parentheses because steel's Achilles heel is that it corrodes. It wants to go back to iron oxide or iron sulfide, and it will, and it does, and it helps us to produce more and more steel each year to replace the junk. They just dug out my basement and went home yesterday. Cast iron pipes, sewer pipes. Good thing I dug up the basement — I was going to have to do it again sometime in the next ten years, because those pipes have been down there for 80 years. They're not much good. I was discussing whether they should put in plastic, because if I put plastic sewer pipe in, it'll be there 150 years from now, and I may not be alive by then.
Every material has its own niche, and there are multiple niches. These three materials are used in extremely large volumes because they have an interesting combination of niches. Remember, number one is externalities, number two is price, number three is availability, and then there's all kinds of other things. Yesterday's conclusion is, material selection is a multi-dimensional problem. We're going to talk next time about packaging materials — can be plastic, can be paper, can be composites, can be aluminum, can be steel. I've got some chili with beans in here in the steel can, but they have to paint that can on the inside, because otherwise it would corrode just like my sewer pipes, even faster than every 80 years. Dr. Belmar will be here tomorrow.